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	<title>Comments on: Tabs or Spaces?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/</link>
	<description>Like a chicken with a jewel in its beak.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:34:41 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dwayne</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-48741</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-48741</guid>
		<description>Old thread but way relavent topic.  I&#039;ve been a fan of tab characters for 20 years but I&#039;ve decided to abandon them completely and to even take Sean&#039;s militant stance!  (but not because of Sean&#039;s arguments mind you..  ;)

The only reason *for* tabs is it makes for smaller source files.  Now days hoever *zip makes short work of all repeating character sequences so the only reason for tabs has gone away.

&lt;i&gt;From the WordPress Codex on coding style: Indent! Your indentation should always reflect logical structure. Use real tabs and not spaces, as this allows the most flexibility across clients.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes always indent to reflect logical structure but never use a tab character to do it.  The problem is there is no longer a standard for the definition of a tab - it used to be &quot;stop at the next modulo8 column&quot; - but then people were given the chance to &quot;adjust&quot; this WITHOUT defining their abstraction within the given document... and now we have a complete mess.  Spacs are now the only well defined whitespace (that doesn&#039;t break a line).

The action of the tab key and the presence of a tab character have now become totally orthoganal concepts.  What source editors do when you press tab should no longer ever include inserting a 0x9 into a document...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old thread but way relavent topic.  I&#8217;ve been a fan of tab characters for 20 years but I&#8217;ve decided to abandon them completely and to even take Sean&#8217;s militant stance!  (but not because of Sean&#8217;s arguments mind you..  ;)</p>
<p>The only reason *for* tabs is it makes for smaller source files.  Now days hoever *zip makes short work of all repeating character sequences so the only reason for tabs has gone away.</p>
<p><i>From the WordPress Codex on coding style: Indent! Your indentation should always reflect logical structure. Use real tabs and not spaces, as this allows the most flexibility across clients.</i></p>
<p>Yes always indent to reflect logical structure but never use a tab character to do it.  The problem is there is no longer a standard for the definition of a tab &#8211; it used to be &#8220;stop at the next modulo8 column&#8221; &#8211; but then people were given the chance to &#8220;adjust&#8221; this WITHOUT defining their abstraction within the given document&#8230; and now we have a complete mess.  Spacs are now the only well defined whitespace (that doesn&#8217;t break a line).</p>
<p>The action of the tab key and the presence of a tab character have now become totally orthoganal concepts.  What source editors do when you press tab should no longer ever include inserting a 0&#215;9 into a document&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: TSO</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-13187</link>
		<dc:creator>TSO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-13187</guid>
		<description>Tabs for me (at least I&#039;m consistent with them). People who use spaces people aren&#039;t always consistent either. I&#039;ve seen indents ranging anywhere from 2-4 spaces (sometimes within the same piece of code). At least with tabs, I can do a search and replace to convert it to whatever space-width that&#039;s needed. And if people just stick with tab sizes of 8 spaces, you&#039;ll definitely notice any mix of tabs/spaces. To all the spaces proponents, have you even tried using tabs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tabs for me (at least I&#8217;m consistent with them). People who use spaces people aren&#8217;t always consistent either. I&#8217;ve seen indents ranging anywhere from 2-4 spaces (sometimes within the same piece of code). At least with tabs, I can do a search and replace to convert it to whatever space-width that&#8217;s needed. And if people just stick with tab sizes of 8 spaces, you&#8217;ll definitely notice any mix of tabs/spaces. To all the spaces proponents, have you even tried using tabs?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeb</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-13067</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 04:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-13067</guid>
		<description>Tabs (for me) mean fewer keystrokes which contributes less to carpel tunnel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tabs (for me) mean fewer keystrokes which contributes less to carpel tunnel.</p>
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		<title>By: shacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12598</link>
		<dc:creator>shacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12598</guid>
		<description>Great tips Larry, thanks. Now to find an equivalent technique for BBEdit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great tips Larry, thanks. Now to find an equivalent technique for BBEdit.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12597</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12597</guid>
		<description>Spaces, for me.  Seems like it can be hard to get everyone to be consistent about tab usage.

However, vim does make it easy to deal with either tabs or spaces:

First of all,
:set tabstop=N

Then, to convert new tabs to spaces as you type
:set expandtab (or :set noexpandtab if you like  tabs)

And to fix a tab formatted file by converting all tabs to spaces
:retab  (or :retab N, where N is the new tabstop value)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spaces, for me.  Seems like it can be hard to get everyone to be consistent about tab usage.</p>
<p>However, vim does make it easy to deal with either tabs or spaces:</p>
<p>First of all,<br />
:set tabstop=N</p>
<p>Then, to convert new tabs to spaces as you type<br />
:set expandtab (or :set noexpandtab if you like  tabs)</p>
<p>And to fix a tab formatted file by converting all tabs to spaces<br />
:retab  (or :retab N, where N is the new tabstop value)</p>
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		<title>By: shacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12595</link>
		<dc:creator>shacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12595</guid>
		<description>Ooh, that would be a fun one. But unlike tabs v spaces, editor  choice isn&#039;t binary, so I&#039;d  have to list a couple dozen options. Hmm... actually, this poll plugin does have an option to let users add new choices, which I&#039;ve never tried, and which seems would be disastrous for accuracy of the results, but could be fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooh, that would be a fun one. But unlike tabs v spaces, editor  choice isn&#8217;t binary, so I&#8217;d  have to list a couple dozen options. Hmm&#8230; actually, this poll plugin does have an option to let users add new choices, which I&#8217;ve never tried, and which seems would be disastrous for accuracy of the results, but could be fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Graham</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12594</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12594</guid>
		<description>Not surprisingly, it seems like the poll is pretty evenly split...

Next poll:  EMACS or vi?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not surprisingly, it seems like the poll is pretty evenly split&#8230;</p>
<p>Next poll:  EMACS or vi?</p>
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		<title>By: David Huff</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12584</link>
		<dc:creator>David Huff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 12:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12584</guid>
		<description>Tabs, but handled correctly. ViM is your friend in this regard :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tabs, but handled correctly. ViM is your friend in this regard :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12557</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 00:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12557</guid>
		<description>Diffing source code with tabs always ends up looking bad. Huge indents and other problems. Every place I&#039;ve ever worked has eventually settled on spaces and all the good editors and IDEs know how to insert tabs as spaces and read spaces as tabs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diffing source code with tabs always ends up looking bad. Huge indents and other problems. Every place I&#8217;ve ever worked has eventually settled on spaces and all the good editors and IDEs know how to insert tabs as spaces and read spaces as tabs.</p>
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		<title>By: shacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12525</link>
		<dc:creator>shacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 16:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12525</guid>
		<description>Oops, accidentally dropped the poll overnight. It&#039;s back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, accidentally dropped the poll overnight. It&#8217;s back.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jim Gaynor</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12524</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Gaynor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 16:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12524</guid>
		<description>I like tabs.

(I also like pie, but that&#039;s another story).

However, as Sean and Dan point out, tabs all-too-often turn into a strange mix of tabs and 4/8-spaces.

So I&#039;ll use tabs for code that I make, but I rarely just the tabs of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like tabs.</p>
<p>(I also like pie, but that&#8217;s another story).</p>
<p>However, as Sean and Dan point out, tabs all-too-often turn into a strange mix of tabs and 4/8-spaces.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;ll use tabs for code that I make, but I rarely just the tabs of others.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12476</link>
		<dc:creator>shacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12476</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And I like that I can indent entire blocks of code cleanly and quickly with tabs (maybe this is possible in vi with spaces as well as with tabs, though I don’t see how)&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, Zawinski&#039;s article linked above contains notes on how to configure vi/vim to do this, but also makes the larger point that the safest bet is to go ahead and use tabs while coding but configure your editor to convert tabs to an equivalent number of spaces while saving to disk (in BBEdit this is the entab/detab command). Which makes a certain amount of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And I like that I can indent entire blocks of code cleanly and quickly with tabs (maybe this is possible in vi with spaces as well as with tabs, though I don’t see how)</i></p>
<p>Actually, Zawinski&#8217;s article linked above contains notes on how to configure vi/vim to do this, but also makes the larger point that the safest bet is to go ahead and use tabs while coding but configure your editor to convert tabs to an equivalent number of spaces while saving to disk (in BBEdit this is the entab/detab command). Which makes a certain amount of sense.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12469</link>
		<dc:creator>shacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 05:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12469</guid>
		<description>From the WordPress Codex on &lt;a href=&quot;http://wordpress.org/docs/developer/coding-style/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;coding style&lt;/a&gt;:

Indent! Your indentation should always reflect logical structure. Use &lt;b&gt;real tabs&lt;/b&gt; and &lt;b&gt;not spaces&lt;/b&gt;, as this allows the most flexibility across clients.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the WordPress Codex on <a href="http://wordpress.org/docs/developer/coding-style/" rel="nofollow">coding style</a>:</p>
<p>Indent! Your indentation should always reflect logical structure. Use <b>real tabs</b> and <b>not spaces</b>, as this allows the most flexibility across clients.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12449</link>
		<dc:creator>shacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 00:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12449</guid>
		<description>Interesting, we&#039;re building up toward an even split here. 

I&#039;m on the tab side. Probably because that&#039;s what I learned and all I&#039;ve ever done, but it does feel the most logical to me, since tabs are abstract --   the width of a tab is up to the displaying editor. If I like narrow indentations and you like wide ones, we can both have our way at the same time by configuring our editors differently. And I like that tabs save bytes. And I like that I can indent entire blocks of code cleanly and quickly with tabs (maybe this is possible in vi with spaces as well as with tabs, though I don&#039;t see how)

I do agree that it&#039;s a mess when they&#039;re mixed, but disagree with Sean that tab people tend to use both tabs AND spaces. It would never occur to me to indent code with a space, so I don&#039;t do that. Though others might. 

The WordPress codebase is all tab indented, and according to the mailing list traffic, the topic had never come up until now - everything&#039;s  been humming along merrily. 

My space-centric comrade reports that after using tabs for a month on this project he&#039;s grown to like them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting, we&#8217;re building up toward an even split here. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m on the tab side. Probably because that&#8217;s what I learned and all I&#8217;ve ever done, but it does feel the most logical to me, since tabs are abstract &#8212;   the width of a tab is up to the displaying editor. If I like narrow indentations and you like wide ones, we can both have our way at the same time by configuring our editors differently. And I like that tabs save bytes. And I like that I can indent entire blocks of code cleanly and quickly with tabs (maybe this is possible in vi with spaces as well as with tabs, though I don&#8217;t see how)</p>
<p>I do agree that it&#8217;s a mess when they&#8217;re mixed, but disagree with Sean that tab people tend to use both tabs AND spaces. It would never occur to me to indent code with a space, so I don&#8217;t do that. Though others might. </p>
<p>The WordPress codebase is all tab indented, and according to the mailing list traffic, the topic had never come up until now &#8211; everything&#8217;s  been humming along merrily. </p>
<p>My space-centric comrade reports that after using tabs for a month on this project he&#8217;s grown to like them.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/comment-page-1/#comment-12440</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jul 2006 22:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdhouse.org/blog/2006/07/04/tabs-or-spaces/#comment-12440</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m more-or-less with Sean (although not so militant) - I love the idea of tabs, but in practice they just never seem to work out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m more-or-less with Sean (although not so militant) &#8211; I love the idea of tabs, but in practice they just never seem to work out.</p>
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