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	<title>Comments on: 5th-Grade Level</title>
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	<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/</link>
	<description>Like a chicken with a jewel in its beak.</description>
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		<title>By: Scot Hacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1270</link>
		<dc:creator>Scot Hacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1270</guid>
		<description>Chris - re: reading not being an old enough technology to have become widespread? You&#039;ve just taken the term &quot;apologist&quot; to a whole &#039;nuther level ;)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris &#8211; re: reading not being an old enough technology to have become widespread? You&#8217;ve just taken the term &#8220;apologist&#8221; to a whole &#8216;nuther level ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Hacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1269</link>
		<dc:creator>Scot Hacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1269</guid>
		<description>Dylan, you&#039;re right on the voting thing. So let&#039;s rephrase that: &quot;These people are allowed to vote.&quot; IOW, issues are complex. Should some moderate level of education be a prerequisite to registering a vote in a complex world? I know I know, that&#039;s a can of worms...  

On the other hand, if someone is nearly illiterate and therefore unlikely to vote, and they care enough to vote anyway, they probably deserve to. 

Gee, Wally, social engineering is *hard*!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dylan, you&#8217;re right on the voting thing. So let&#8217;s rephrase that: &#8220;These people are allowed to vote.&#8221; IOW, issues are complex. Should some moderate level of education be a prerequisite to registering a vote in a complex world? I know I know, that&#8217;s a can of worms&#8230;  </p>
<p>On the other hand, if someone is nearly illiterate and therefore unlikely to vote, and they care enough to vote anyway, they probably deserve to. </p>
<p>Gee, Wally, social engineering is *hard*!</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Hacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1268</link>
		<dc:creator>Scot Hacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2003 02:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1268</guid>
		<description>Xenex and Kartoffel, I don&#039;t understand your critique. Not only is there nothing wrong with using &quot;25%&quot;  and &quot;one quarter&quot; in the same sentence or paragraph to mean the same thing, but it&#039;s the right thing to do. Writers always try to avoid repeating the same phrase in proximity. This is why we have  thesauruseseses. 

Beyond that, such picayune quibbling seems to sidestep  the point - illiteracy in the U.S. is far beyond what most of us imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xenex and Kartoffel, I don&#8217;t understand your critique. Not only is there nothing wrong with using &#8220;25%&#8221;  and &#8220;one quarter&#8221; in the same sentence or paragraph to mean the same thing, but it&#8217;s the right thing to do. Writers always try to avoid repeating the same phrase in proximity. This is why we have  thesauruseseses. </p>
<p>Beyond that, such picayune quibbling seems to sidestep  the point &#8211; illiteracy in the U.S. is far beyond what most of us imagine.</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Hacker</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1267</link>
		<dc:creator>Scot Hacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2003 02:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1267</guid>
		<description>Chris, thanks for the perspective via the OECD numbers. Although I&#039;d still hope to see &quot;the most  prosperous country&quot; place better than 10th. Although the U.S. has economic issues involved  that change the game - no socialism means more poor communities, lots of parents not encouraging kids to take school seriously, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, thanks for the perspective via the OECD numbers. Although I&#8217;d still hope to see &#8220;the most  prosperous country&#8221; place better than 10th. Although the U.S. has economic issues involved  that change the game &#8211; no socialism means more poor communities, lots of parents not encouraging kids to take school seriously, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1266</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2003 00:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1266</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see an overlay map of the world with dates of initial introduction and widespread adoption of the various major technologies by region. Say, wheels, agriculture, writing, automobiles, computers. 

Writing (and therefore reading) is not *that* old as a technology -- it&#039;s younger than agriculture, and not everyone in the world practices that (tho the numbers living in non-ag societies are pretty small). Since it takes time to adopt new tech, shouldn&#039;t we just consider non-readers as the late adopters?

Of course in the computer age those who read and write well have a major advantage over those who don&#039;t. 

Another point... Having a tool makes it hard to imagine living without it. I just couldn&#039;t imagine living without a car. And I just couldn&#039;t imagine living without words and books, either, but millions of people do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see an overlay map of the world with dates of initial introduction and widespread adoption of the various major technologies by region. Say, wheels, agriculture, writing, automobiles, computers. </p>
<p>Writing (and therefore reading) is not *that* old as a technology &#8212; it&#8217;s younger than agriculture, and not everyone in the world practices that (tho the numbers living in non-ag societies are pretty small). Since it takes time to adopt new tech, shouldn&#8217;t we just consider non-readers as the late adopters?</p>
<p>Of course in the computer age those who read and write well have a major advantage over those who don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Another point&#8230; Having a tool makes it hard to imagine living without it. I just couldn&#8217;t imagine living without a car. And I just couldn&#8217;t imagine living without words and books, either, but millions of people do.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan Tweney</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1265</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan Tweney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1265</guid>
		<description>&quot;these people vote&quot; you say ... but they probably don&#039;t. Less than half of eligible citizens actually vote here, even in major elections, and for some elections it&#039;s as low as 30% of those eligible. 

I&#039;m pretty sure that the more education you have, the more likely you are to vote. Which means that 50% of the population are functionally illiterate, *and* effectively unrepresented in the political process. No wonder poverty and homelessness are so rampant.

BTW, half of the children in California live in families where the income is less than 200% of the poverty line ($25K a year for a family of five). see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/lowinckid.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/lowinckid.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;these people vote&#8221; you say &#8230; but they probably don&#8217;t. Less than half of eligible citizens actually vote here, even in major elections, and for some elections it&#8217;s as low as 30% of those eligible. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure that the more education you have, the more likely you are to vote. Which means that 50% of the population are functionally illiterate, *and* effectively unrepresented in the political process. No wonder poverty and homelessness are so rampant.</p>
<p>BTW, half of the children in California live in families where the income is less than 200% of the poverty line ($25K a year for a family of five). see <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/lowinckid.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/lowinckid.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kartoffel</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1264</link>
		<dc:creator>Kartoffel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1264</guid>
		<description>The article says, &quot;... data suggest that nearly a quarter of U.S. adults read at or below a fifth-grade level, and at least 25 percent read at about an eighth-grade level.&quot;

Xenex&#039;s comments are right on.  Using &quot;one quarter&quot; and &quot;25 percent&quot; in the same sentence is goofy. 

The article does state, in its own way, that the lower quartile of the sample population reads at 5th grade level or worse.  Err, excuse me... &quot;nearly&quot; one quarter.  Assuming &quot;nearly&quot; means less than 25%, we can infer that lower quartile point is actually slightly above the _5th-grade_ level.

After that, we have a ballpark statement about  a _different_ 25% subset of the sample group who read at &quot;about an eighth-grade level&quot;.  What&#039;s the uncertainty here?  Plus or minus one grade level, two?  Can I assume that this second 25% subset is the set between the first quartile and the median?  No!  There is no way to know based what the article says.

My informal survey of San Francisco Chronicle editors concludes that 1 editor writes about statistics at an unsatisfactory level. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article says, &#8220;&#8230; data suggest that nearly a quarter of U.S. adults read at or below a fifth-grade level, and at least 25 percent read at about an eighth-grade level.&#8221;</p>
<p>Xenex&#8217;s comments are right on.  Using &#8220;one quarter&#8221; and &#8220;25 percent&#8221; in the same sentence is goofy. </p>
<p>The article does state, in its own way, that the lower quartile of the sample population reads at 5th grade level or worse.  Err, excuse me&#8230; &#8220;nearly&#8221; one quarter.  Assuming &#8220;nearly&#8221; means less than 25%, we can infer that lower quartile point is actually slightly above the _5th-grade_ level.</p>
<p>After that, we have a ballpark statement about  a _different_ 25% subset of the sample group who read at &#8220;about an eighth-grade level&#8221;.  What&#8217;s the uncertainty here?  Plus or minus one grade level, two?  Can I assume that this second 25% subset is the set between the first quartile and the median?  No!  There is no way to know based what the article says.</p>
<p>My informal survey of San Francisco Chronicle editors concludes that 1 editor writes about statistics at an unsatisfactory level. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Xenex</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1263</link>
		<dc:creator>Xenex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1263</guid>
		<description>A quarter and 25 percent.

I love how, in an article about illiteracy, they&#039;ve used two different ways to state the same value. It&#039;s almost as if they were trying to make the article difficult to read...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quarter and 25 percent.</p>
<p>I love how, in an article about illiteracy, they&#8217;ve used two different ways to state the same value. It&#8217;s almost as if they were trying to make the article difficult to read&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1262</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1262</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m like, oh my god! like, maybe, like, *television* has something to, like, do with it?

I mean, totally!

and check this out - some OECD numbers on international literacy rates:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pisa.oecd.org/knowledge/summary/a.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.pisa.oecd.org/knowledge/summary/a.htm&lt;/a&gt;

The US doesn&#039;t stack up all that badly. It has more people at the extremes (both high and low reading level) than other countries. It&#039;s 10th overall (out of 20) among OECD members. Finland is #1. Internationally around 75% of people are in the middle reading levels. Don&#039;t forget just by having a 4-year college degree you&#039;re in the top 10%!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m like, oh my god! like, maybe, like, *television* has something to, like, do with it?</p>
<p>I mean, totally!</p>
<p>and check this out &#8211; some OECD numbers on international literacy rates:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pisa.oecd.org/knowledge/summary/a.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.pisa.oecd.org/knowledge/summary/a.htm</a></p>
<p>The US doesn&#8217;t stack up all that badly. It has more people at the extremes (both high and low reading level) than other countries. It&#8217;s 10th overall (out of 20) among OECD members. Finland is #1. Internationally around 75% of people are in the middle reading levels. Don&#8217;t forget just by having a 4-year college degree you&#8217;re in the top 10%!</p>
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		<title>By: Javahead</title>
		<link>http://birdhouse.org/blog/2003/03/03/5th-grade-level/comment-page-1/#comment-1261</link>
		<dc:creator>Javahead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.birdhouse.org/wordpress/?p=715#comment-1261</guid>
		<description>IMHO, this fraud, plain and simple.

My wife was a elementary school teacher (2nd grade) over here in North Carolina (motto: #1 in pork production, #48 in education!).  After about three years she quit because (among other things) the pricipal refused to let her hold back students.  She was told, &quot;holding them back would cause too much harm to their self esteem.&quot;  I don&#039;t think there was a single student that was ever held back in the entire school while this principal was in office.

I&#039;d like to see all these students this principal &quot;helped&quot; show up at her front door in about 8 more years when they&#039;ve graduated from high school and the only job they are qualified for is night cook at the local fast food stand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO, this fraud, plain and simple.</p>
<p>My wife was a elementary school teacher (2nd grade) over here in North Carolina (motto: #1 in pork production, #48 in education!).  After about three years she quit because (among other things) the pricipal refused to let her hold back students.  She was told, &#8220;holding them back would cause too much harm to their self esteem.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t think there was a single student that was ever held back in the entire school while this principal was in office.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to see all these students this principal &#8220;helped&#8221; show up at her front door in about 8 more years when they&#8217;ve graduated from high school and the only job they are qualified for is night cook at the local fast food stand.</p>
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